i thought, wow, i never thought about that. i thought about turkey but i have never thought about poland. then he said we are going to have a war within the next 100 years with mexico. so there was a whole lot of things in a book that were very fascinating. i decided i am going to read his second book which is really a little more down to earth. the other thing, as congressman come, everybody who writes a book says you ought to read this book. so, we get all kinds of books, many of which i've put in my office. but i also get people who recommend books to me and say you should read this book. friends and so forth. one book was sent to me by my long-time secretary and it is about china, the man who loves china. this is a ymca director who went

to china in the late 1800's and chronicled -- the most definitive chronicle ling of china's contribution to science and the world. and she said you ought to read this. if you want to understand where this boom is coming from in china, it is not new. it is not like yesterday they discovered science or yesterday they discovered it. they have been there for 6000 years and here's a guy that put it all together in a very good look. and she said you ought to read it. so i have gotten a lot of looks and i started this book and i will have to started again because i forgot some of what i read from the first part. but, these books will keep me occupied this summer. >> tell us what you are reading this summer. send us a tweed a booktv. here are the best-selling nonfiction titles from "usa today".com.

for what are you reading this summer? booktv wants to know. >> let me mention one book that i just finished. it is an autobiography entitled infidel by hine hersey about a somalian woman who was brought up in a war-torn area there and lived in several african and middle eastern countries, finally escaped to holland and got political asylum there and became actually a member of parliament. she was involved in a real controversy based on the movie that she and van gogh produced about the harshness of islam and the way that it is being swept

under the rug by western countries. this resulted in van gogh being assassinated in holland. and she was put under protect their custody for some several weeks. the basic terminus of the book is that number one, the countries that she observed in africa and the middle east are being held back by the religion of islam, particularly because of its his harsh treatment of women and not allowing 50% of the population to reach their full potential. and also, that western countries such as holland by accepting an extreme version of multiculturalism are actually encouraging radical

fundamentalists of islam to take hold and be a part of western democracies. with their mistreatment of women and with their honor killings, with their female mutilation and things of that nature. so she calls on western democracies to work toward better assimilation and integration of people from former muslim countries. >> tell us what you are reading this summer. send us a tweet at otb. >> with titles like slander, godless, guilty and her latest the mana, ann coulter has something to say. now sunday august 7, your chance to talk to e-mail and tweet the new york times best-selling author and syndicated columnist ann coulter.

more now from booktv's all-day coverage of the harlem book fair. up next a panel on the history of african-american humor from the langston hughes auditorium and the schomburg center for research in black culture. >> good afternoon. let me say good afternoon to all of you and i want to welcome you to this afternoon's session called "on the real side," a history of african-american humor. i am carlton brown, the president of atlantic university, obviously in atlanta, georgia. we are very pleased to be a part of this session today. we are at convert -- research with a number of disciplines and holdings that connect us directly to the harlem book fair

in that we have degree programs up to the doctor degree in african-american studies and the africana women's studies and a significant program in english and language arts. we have a number of people with us today and i want to get right down to our business here. so i want you to join me in welcoming our colleagues here. i am going to begin with broadcast personality and social commentator, sabrina lamb. she is the -- go ahead and clap for her. [applause] she is the author of a kettle full of cultures left to beak marks on my forehead. well some of you may recall her antics as a stand-up comedian on girls night out, her cover articles from essence magazine, her wit and obvious knack for satire have repelled her into the front row of up-and-coming novelist and i'm still struck by this idea of vultures leaving

beak marks on my forehead. she is as much a pulse point for national news and perspectives as would be any network news anchor and probably a lot were fun and entertaining withal the deference to ms. malveaux who just left here a couple of minutes ago. every teacher, certainly every english teacher owes a huge debt of gratitude to jam donelson, the author of "conversate is not a word." [applause] and as a former english teacher i'm deeply appreciative of her work. so, you also likely know or may have received any of thousands of chain e-mails spawning from her web site, hot ghetto mess, which led to the controversial but highly viewed tv show, we have got to do better with comedian charlie murphy. her perspectives on black

america are least as per dr. death, some would say raw and wherever you stand on her musings you cannot escape the fact that she make that very clear that we are all in this together. third, if it is about african-americans and it is funny and you saw it on tv, there is a very strong possibility that larry wilmore's imprint is on it somewhere. a longtime fixture in hollywood you know his work as writer and producer of programs including in living color, fresh prince of bel air, the jamie foxx show, and it animated comedy, the pjs with eddie murphy. but don't presume he has been boxed into black hollywood. he is also produced episodes of the office, and appears regularly on "the daily show." you also may have seen him in i love you man and jennifer

schmuck's. his book and it is another interesting title, i'd rather have casinos. >> "i'd rather we got casinos." >> "i'd rather we got casinos." okay, we have a printed wrong here, which is even better. offers and no-holds-barred view of the state of blacks in racist america. and finally, if there is anyone in america who should be considered the curator, even the conservator of the history of african-american literacy and humor, it is mel watkins. [applause] he has served as writer and editor for "the new york times" sunday book review from 64 to 85. he is a critic, commentator and champion of lack art and culture from lincoln perry to richard pryor to chris rock.

stemming from his 1979 receipt of alicia patterson journalism fellowship, mr. watkins in 1994 compiled his research on the social history of african-american comedy into the similar work "on the real side," laughing, lying and signifying, the underground tradition of african-american humor that transformed american culture. of course, that is the work and the work of fall for these individuals that rings is here today to get a good look at the real side. now this has been a fairly sedate adventure thus far today and i'm expecting we are going to change that a little bit. i am going to start with some definition, some way of getting back to the purpose of this whole gathering and i'm going to start with mel watkins and let the other panelists talk after

that. you trace the african-american humor back to slavery but when history is taught, we see bondage, shackles and receive force labor and savage brutality. where's the punchline? >> the punchline is that african slaves when they were initially brought here came from a continent where there was an oral tradition and scandalous talk criticizing others was a part of that culture. a central part of the history of african culture and essentially early rappers, african rappers. they were like the troubadours from your. they went around and commented on society. they spoke before the kings of various african nations and they added humor or they humorously criticized. the african slaves brought federal judiciary with them, and

so when you get to america and you have them in a bonded situation you have an entirely different kind of emergence of that humor because we are in africa they could. >> freely about whatever they wanted to speak about here they couldn't. that his wife the initial title of this book which has been changed to a history of african-american humor but the long title was there before. i spoke about the underground nature of african-american humor because one of the most prominent features or characteristics of african-american humor at the outset was that it was underground. it was hidden, because africans could not say what they wanted to. the satirical humor the day brought with them, the satirical, verbal descriptions or comments, commentary on life as a side had to be silenced here. they could not do that. it could mean death and it certainly could mean being sold. it had very tragic consequences

of the humor was hidden. what happened was you would get folktales coming out. he would get these very interesting folk tales coming out for the humor becomes indirect. it becomes humor that is delivered in a different way. i think one of the main sources of that humor are the old john tales where the slave pretends to be ignorant, pretends to be naïve, but in fact he is using his naïveté to criticize the master. later on i will read something from that if we have a chance and one of the jokes that illustrate that. you have a slavery situation and you have the blacks attempting to continue their old tradition of criticizing, observing what was going on and you have the pretense of being naïve and then you have white space or lack face minstrels performing on stage and black faces and pretending to be black.

again, the pretense went on that the presentation that was given by these comics was that blacks were in current, stupid, unable to deal with life in a serious matter and they were funny. they were i nasally funny. they were funny because they were black and that was the predominant presentation of portrayal of blacks at this point. blacks then after slavery -- here is where we began to see authentic african-american humor begin to emerge because what happens is these performance people like billy curzon san ernest hogan and various other performers at the time, these people come along and they start to act sarah prior to this that before only presented lacks is being simpleminded and capable of thinking and funny because

they were stupid. now you have this gradual change around 1900 from that, you get various other comedians coming out. the humor changes. the public face of humor begins to change. blackface make up begins to disappear. you still have it presentation of lacks is being stupid in movies and so forth. you have in fact silent movies presented as the ignorant black. you had various other actors and actresses later. you had had a mcdaniel and these comic servants that came along so you still had blacks being per trade as submissive, relatively ignorant and incapable of -- it wasn't until the 1950s that african-american humor starts to emerge as we know it now and you have people like red fox and various others coming along. these people start to deal with the humor that had been hidden all along.

that humor was alive and african-american communities. it simply hadn't been presented to the wreck in public. with red fox nfc russell and a few others she started to get this. from them, you get a gradual emergence of the comics you know now. you get flip wilson and bill cosby at one point. you get gregory who starts to deal with political humor in 1961 and from that point on, you move up to richard pryor whom i consider the person who broke, who opened the door entirely because richard pryor started to deal with every aspect of that african-american humor that had been hidden previously and from richard pryor, we see dave chapelle. you have wanda sykes and a couple of people here who can write and perform and honestly% african-american humor. so that is the brief. >> beautiful. thank you. [applause] so, jam donaldson. how much of what you target in

hot ghetto mess and "conversate is not a word" would you attribute to things that stem in some ways from this history of oppression or the way this stuff plays out? >> i think it is really interesting to hear it laid out that way because when you speak about this sort of humor and that was underground, i think we still have that in our communities. i think there are still topics that we feel very comfortable talking about in the barbershop or at happy hour with our friends and we laugh, but sometimes when you put it out into mainstream america, or god for bid put it in a book, then it becomes very uncomfortable. and i think we are still struggling with this line about satire and irony and sarcasm and wit and i think particularly this generation today we have all grown up very ironic and the excerpts are very witty and

critical and i think we can be very funny and have a different approach to humor but i think even within our own communities we are very uncomfortable. i get a lot of flack for some of the things that i say particularly not because they are true but because i've said it in public where all the white people herded. and i mean that is real. i think we are definitely making strides. just from my career, i've been writing for the last five years and i have seen attitudes change particularly with social media and the internet becoming so pervasive in so many more voices out there in so many different perspectives. but i do think there is still this aspect of underground conversations and how do we feel -- make deal with putting those in the mainstream versus perpetuating stereotypes. i think that is dave chapelle who brought that up. your toes on that line and sometimes you don't know how far you can go over.

i think we are still struggling a bit because we have absolutely come leaps and bounds and i'm happy to have the opportunity to get to do what i do. there is definitely still some challenges with what is acceptable for humor particularly when we are talking about the written word. >> sabrina how does that hit you? >> i also believe that so-called lack humor is urgent. i mean, jam's title of her book and mel's title is research but in my title, and mean you are a fine fellow and very articulate obviously. a wonderful university, but my book is not a kettle of folgers. a kettle of folgers.

[applause] african-american humor is loud. it is in your face and it is the bottom line. it is not polite. it is not six. it is not pretty. it is a response to -- off and it is speaking to the power but when a comic, a black comic says that he is saying it or she is saying it from a powerful position. so, as an african-american writer, i get the opportunity to. >> and write in subtext, to write what we are all thinking as opposed to well, they met the son-in-law and he was a handsome fellow as opposed to how come

that boy walks with a limp? you know, what we are really thinking and as human beings we should have, we should take the permission to say and express ourselves and as in the subtext. it is so free and it is so much fun. [applause] >> yes, it is. >> and one more thing, is it possible the harlem book fair can move back to new york as opposed to having us on the equator? can we come back? [laughter] thank you. >> i think they were supposed to be a sequence where we were just captured as slave somewhere near the equator. that is the only explanation i have. now, very wilmore. you have been in hollywood most of your career? >> a pretty pretty longtime. >> a pretty long time so you are one of the very few african-american voices that is

consistently been there kind of in a bit of wilderness. >> and so, what is the craft now? given that you are in many cases the voice, how do you balance getting us to laugh at ourselves and making us -- and not making us a laughingstock? >> that is a great question. it is funny because i have done satire. i have always felt qualities when we have the right to make fun of ourselves and it is okay just like everybody else, right? and i have been in the position from the in living color days in pjs especially caught a lot of heat just from having a crackhead on the show i remember. it is like how can you have a on the show? to me it seems like well andy griffith had a town drunk. taxi had liked the town burnout, a drug addict. why can't we have a crackhead? and i remember having to defend

it against the naacp. we had a meeting. [laughter] you always have to have a meeting when you have a black show. my defense was that he was funny. that was his job. that was his job. [laughter] in my mind it is satirical. is not to be taken seriously. there is irony about it. the show that i was most proud of was the. ernie: show, the show that i created. [applause] thank you very much. i have to tell you when i created the. ernie: show it was not easy to get the black family on television and it was important to me not to make black the issue in the writing but to have

blacks be in the dna of the show. in this instance i'm not making fun of it and i'm using the humanity and telling the story so completely different from making fun of it. the blacks that were in the show people couldn't deny it even though it was a complex so it gave people something they hadn't quite seen before. not quite in this way where that kind of humanity was right in their face all the time. and bernie unapologetic, successful but came from a place that everybody can identify with. bernie was brilliant on that show too. he really was brilliant. [applause] i will just tell this real quick. was really important for me also, got my big rake in living color and the thing that was significant about the show that there was a black producer on the show that ran the show.

that was very important man it really inspired me. up is very significant that. ernie: and myself were in those meetings to pitch that show together. it is nowhere network comedy and it is a sad situation. >> we are going to move to a slightly different topic now. >> too much crack so we have to go on. a few years back, and this is, i'm going to see who is going to respond to this. is going to be interesting. a few years back we heard a lot of discussion about the word -- and in fact one former mayor and i'm not going to name this mayor, even decided to bury the word at a public funeral. and of course, some communities of reserved reserve the exclusive privilege of using it.

so, first, where do each of you stand on this word? >> i absolutely am against it. in my life, in the communication. it is a lazy crutch to lean on and the person that uses it is actually expressing their own demonization of themselves and trying to perpetuate it on others. [applause] >> okay. is there a different viewpoint? >> i know that is not funny but that is what i think. >> i think the term came into use with richard pryor and the way richard pryor used it was much different than it has been used now because richard pryor did characters. the characters that he did, he wanted to do them on this lee and they would have used the term so that is why he used to used to them that is way was used at that point. now to simply a punctuation mark

in everybody's rapine everybody's presentation. it is a different thing and i agree with sabrina that it is a dehumanizing -- he gives a false sense of attempting to make fun of yourself by calling yourself something that is hateful in the eyes of most people so it really doesn't work for me. >> others'? >> i probably have to recuse myself. [laughter] as a satirist. in my book i remember they did scenarios and they said does anyone do a eulogy for the word? it seems rather unfair so i have a eulogy for the n word in the book and then i said does the even get a fair trial? how come other words are being banned? i have a modest trial of the n word that the is. >> larry why do you expect justice in america in a trial for the? >> that is exactly right. [laughter]

>> but you know, in satire at believe there is a place for everything. in dramatic storytelling, you never know. i did a piece on "the daily show" about people wanting to remove it from huckleberry finn and that is literature as far as i'm concerned and very important. is satirical point i was making is that it is important to understand that is what black people were called back then and that is what they were considered and to not know that is ignoring history. twain makes a very important satirical.. ignoring it is something significant that we should not forget. >> by the way, don't think you should remove it but i think you should not be used as a punchline to every detail. >> that is a different story. >> i agree with that. a starkly you are absolutely right, you can't remove it from a mark twain book because it would destroy the history.

you would have an idea of what is going on. it was used in a certain time and up until a certain point. if you are doing a story from the 1940s and you eliminated the you would be destroying it. >> it would be silent. >> their work, right. >> but do you think sometimes it is true that we spend so much time talking about that word that we miss all the other issue such is the one you mentioned about who is producing the shows in the first place? are we missing our bigger issues by focusing on that? >> i would say, kind of look at the n word as profanity and general. it doesn't appeal to me with the gratuitous use of profanity or the n word but i think you can be used effectively and writing. it can be used very effectively as humor and sometimes i use it very effectively when i'm driving in my car during rush hour traffic. [laughter] i mean, i don't have the

strongest feeling about it, and i definitely abuse it but no, don't believe every hip-hop song, like you should a should not be the generic term for fellow or young lady. but i do think i am not one that has stricken it from my vocabulary totally. .. [laughter]

>> extended animation? >> exactly. [laughter] >> are you advocating that we exhume -- >> no, not a full exhumation, maybe we could put it in a crypt so at least it's aboveground? we can do it. [inaudible conversations] finish. [laughter] [inaudible conversations] >> that's what i really want to know. >> we'll report back on that in two years and let you know where we are. as, um, each of you has demonstrated in your own work or sometimes in chronicling the work of others, the best comedy is also the sharpest social commentary. so how has african-american humor transformed the course of america's social culture given

that particularly in recent decades the social commentary part of this has been so pointed? >> i can speak from my experience, i think stand-up humor and be perhaps humor in the media has been hugely important with social commentary when you look at a show like the daily show with a lot of very poignant, smart social commentary. but somehow i find when you transfer a comedy to the written word, it's much more difficult for essayists, for satirists to do actual books with humorous essays even if they're dealing with social commentary. because whether it's words written on a paper, it's given some sort of gravitas that, you know, comics kind of get away

with. i've said things in a book that a comedian says somewhere in this country every night a week, yet if i say it in an essay for ebony, you know, then everyone's like, oh, my gosh, you're a big -- [inaudible] or something. i mean, seriously. [laughter] oh, you're talking about black people, you shouldn't say that about black people, and be i'm like, oh, but chris rock said the same thing! i think as a writer it's much more definitely to relate humor and social commentary. i mean, i think we're coming along, but it's definitely a harder transition than it is, i think, in television, comedy and other media outlets. and i think more books like the kind that we write, you know -- >> i'm glad that everyone is here in this audience because if you think about it, there's not a lot of books that you can say i'm going to go to a larry willmore book, and i know i'm going to laugh, and he's going to make some great points.

or you're going to get some humor from a jan donaldson or a sabrina lamb. and there is room for it because we love to laugh, and there's so much humor, and there's so much satire or ability to poke fun at so many things that i think publishers -- the one that's left -- are missing the boat on this particular field. [laughter] because if you look at our counterparts and so forth, there's so many weeks of -- books of satire and so forth that you can read and so forth and get a chuckle or a laugh from. so i think this is something we should definitely focus on, and like jan said, there are so many smart writers that are on the stage. ondo stand-up -- i don't do stand-up any longer, but i share with my former stand-up colleagues that they should write more because there is a glass ceiling to stand-up comedy that the power is in the writing, you know? and but for a larry willmore,

there may not have been a bernie mac show. it's a writing behind the scenes that is the power. >> and i was just going to say historically that, um, social commentary really in comedy, in american comedy in general didn't become important until the late '50s because comedy before that was very polite. no one ruffled the waters. no one did anything to upset the apple cart, the status quo was very important to keep intact. so you had people like, and some of them black comics, but lenny bruce, mort saul and be dick gregory were very important in establishing that kind of critical social humor in this country, and then after they did it, other people came along, and black humorists, particularly richard pryor, combined the rawness with the social commentary. made huge strides. opened it up entirely for people. and the writing is kind of interesting also because they're, blacks have been kept away from writing satirical

books. if you look at the literature of african-americans, there were only a few books that even touched on satire up until the 1900s. i think charles chestnut used humor first, and then you have james wheldon johnson, i guess, with the autobiography of an ex-colored man. you don't get anything again until the renaissance, langston hughes, and, um, hurston, those people come along. but they opened up the stage for the kind of writing that you people are doing when you're actually dealing with humorous writing because it's very difficult to do. >> well, you know, i'm glad you bring up dick gregory because dick gregory, to me, is a forgotten voice that should not be forgotten, you know? [applause] absolutely. when i was a kid, i am a little troubled by, and i don't want to make a blanket accusation, but black stand-up comedy today seems a little one-sided in some ways.

it seems very focused on talking about sex or, you know, very much in, you know, one area of humor, you know? whereas when i was coming up in the '60s, dick gregory, a political comic who did very important political satire, flip wilson was kind of a vaudeville-style comic. bill cosby, brilliant story teller. really didn't have someone who appealed to everyone. cambridge who would be considered a hipster today, he really did the college circuit. cotton comes to harlem, remember that? he was brilliant. and then you have your old school comics, your moms maybe my who was brilliant. [applause] and all moms -- that little girl is so cute. all moms mabely had to do was talk, and she was funny. oh, i gotta tell you about my husband. [laughter] man, he was so ugly -- [laughter]

honest to goodness, he hurt my feelings, you know? if. [laughter] we want today just hear this woman talk. you felt like you were connected to some kind of black history by listening to her. and i don't feel that in a lot of comedy today. you know, i just feel like it's very superficial, and it's, you know, the things that are being talked about don't mean anything, you know? in a large sense. i don't want to make a blanket statement. i think chris rock is still just one of the most important not just black comedians, but probably comedians, probably of all time, you know this and then, of course, richard pryor kind of ushered in this modern comedy. but his stuff was more personal, no one has been as personal since richard pryor. he grew up in a brothel, a lot of people don't realize. and he had the courage to talk about that on stage and was, you know, that stuff -- he's talking about shooting his car and be having a heart attack. nobody said that on a stage

anymore. and i say god bless him for telling us those stories and things like that. >> but it took him a minute to get there -- >> bill cosby. >> right, he was bill cosby at first. audiences were not accepting of o him, so and then he had a faithful meeting with ishmael reid who taught him how to develop those characters as a great satirical writer who still lives in the california. and so, but, and so like you said, he was able to make those characters, a wino and so forth, human and that's why bringing it to the written, the written form is really important because it expresses the humor and humanity of our grandmothers. we all have a mom's mabeley in if our family or a crazy old uncle that we keep locked in the closet, or at least in my family. [laughter] but it's important to rejoice with those characters because they live with all of us.

>> so, and i believe our diversity within our community is as important as diversity itself. you know? and so i love the diverse voices. >> yeah, exactly. >> now, let's get into one more thing before we begin to open it up for questions and answers. and we're talking about the history of african-american humor. we've referenced several things including those who write and produce behind the scenes, but more than one comic -- and chris rock does come to mind fairly instantly -- has pointed out that african-americans don't read. do you agree that we don't read? and if so, to what degree is making this observation just something to laugh at versus the cry we gotta do better? >> um, i don't know how to answer that question because, to me, there's a big cultural

movement leading away from reading anyway. i mean, crown books just closed this week. you know, media's so disposable today, you know, people like to get it instantly. i think we live in that kind of society, you know? >> but it's still reading. >> yeah, no, it is. i agree. >> still reading, and it's still something to do with writing -- >> i don't know if it's the black thing. [applause] >> society. >> i think it's a society thing. >> we're moving into an electronic age where people are no longer as concerned with reading, with books, with ideas being expressed in a certain way. television, the availability of that kind of media makes it much easier to simply see something. i mean, we're returning to an era where a picture is worth a thousand words, and television whether you have a thousand pictures, so that's a huge tome, you know? you have to deal with it. it's like the change in the society, i think, not so much blacks although it seems that our community, unfortunately, puts some extra value on not

being literate often, too often. we're making that a point of pride which i think is kind of ridiculous. i don't think that's necessarily going on in the rest of society. but in one, on the one hand, i guess, we could say we're ahead of the time in terms of the general society because we're pushing it in a way that they're not. but i don't think it's just blacks, i think it's mainstream. it's the entire country. >> and writers, we have to be, take more responsibility for our own promotion, our own marketing and so forth because we can't leave it to our publishers to do it, and, um, you know, but it's important that we support satirical writing because satirical voices really take the temperature of the world and particularly when you're talking about black people of what's going on in the black community. >> and i would, i just would say that in terms of the publishing industry, you know, whether it's that blanket generalization is

true that black people don't read, a lot of publishers have accepted that they don't, so it does make authors like myself or sabrina or larry or -- maybe not larry, but other people it's harder to get books published because they go into it saying, well, who's going to read this? black people don't read this sort of thing. and be so i don't know. i, honestly, i don't know a lot of people that read, i mean, my book i know a lot of people who got it and loved it, but it was only because they knew me or someone told me about it. i don't know if they're not promoting the work or if they're not buying it. if they put out some positivemovie and no one comes, then they put out another movie, and everyone comes to that, so it's harder for another positive movie to get the funding. so it's really difficult in know being how much is our audience reading habits, or how much is it that publishers don't believe that our audiences can enjoy

these sorts of books? and it's not only satire. we'll just say it's not strictly social commentary. i think, you know, a lot of us write about just life as a black chick grow canning up in the city, and it happens to be really funny. >> right. >> i mean, it's kind of like the bernie mac show. it's not centered about i'm black and what happened as a black woman today. it's what happened as a regular woman, you know, in a regular city with -- >> strong black woman? >> no, not even the strock back woman. -- strong black woman. no. >> you have to be a -- >> no, just a very mild-tempered strong black woman. [laughter] some of us are quite introverted actually. [laughter] so, i mean, just our regular stories can be interesting and funny and engaging. everything doesn't have to be, you know, the bluest eye, you know? we really have wonderful stories that we all can relate to and i think will just promote the diversity with our own cultures

and have us all understand each other more. and we happen to do it through things that are funny and can kind of teach things about our experiences as a neighborhood or a community. but i think it's just important for us to branch out and maybe pick up a book that you maybe wouldn't have picked up before and just, you know, try out some different things. >> mel, you had a piece that you wanted to share with us. >> i just was going to read you one of the old stories during the slavery, the story of this pompei story. it's the interaction between a slave and a master that shows the direction humor had to go prior to it opening up in the '50s. the master asks the slave, how do i work? is oh, massuh, mighty. what do you mean mighty? well, you look noble. what do you mean by noble? why, sir, you looks just like a lion. where have you ever seen a lion?

i saw one down in the field the other day. that was a jack ass. was it? well, sir, you looks just like him. [laughter] [applause] and that's the way humor had to go before people could speak directly. >> be and that's rochester -- >> yep. [inaudible conversations] >> been having that dialogue with each other ever since. >> that's great. >> let me, as we let people get ready to ask some questions here, i guess it's time for us to do that part, but while they're lining up let me see if we have any other thoughts you want to share, some black thoughts maybe, larry? [laughter] >> well, you know, expounding on what jan was saying, here's something that gets me frustrated in hollywood is hollywood turned where they felt at one point they didn't mind

that black stories could be for everybody, you know? the jeffersons wasn't on some satellite channel, you know, that only black people watched or something, you know? it was on cbs, you know? everybody knew that that was a show for everybody. everybody could watch the jefferson. fresh prince on nbc. and then we've got these negro leagues that i like to call, i call it nig at night. [laughter] i mean, why do we have to -- why is it on one night? i only used half the word. [laughter] but i don't understand that, you know? when did we become just for us? no! our stories are from us, but they can be for everybody. >> right. >> you know? and i think that's kind of the point she was making too. [applause] yeah, they're from our point of view, and that's why i think social satire and commentary is important. it's commentary about the entire society but from our particular unique point of view because blacks in america have a unique

point of view that no one in this country has. even in hollywood india being the new black, i'm sorry, we have a unique perspective that no one else has because of our history. and we can write from that perspective. jewish people l have always had the outsider perspective, they have a unique perspective in their humor that they bring everywhere that's unique to their culture. but that's what we have here in america. no one else has our experience. so we can talk about it. we know the white culture better than they know the black culture. i mean, that's another story. there you go, i'm done. nig at night. >> that's a black thought. [laughter] >> jan? >> no, i mean, i would absolutely echo that, and i think, you know, just like it's very interesting how, you know, i look at a show like a "sex in the city," you know, every sister i know we would look at that show, and we would see ourselves in that show, and i know white women who can look at

girlfriends and see themselves in that show. like larry was saying, we have these very common experiences, we have a unique perspective, but, you know, women dating and can relationships and love and be family and children, um, we're a lot more alike than we are different. and be i think, and unfortunately, we have seen this kind of colored section of shows pop up and movies pop up and music, and i think it is unfortunate. i think it's incumbent upon all of us to keep writing and for all of you aspiring writers out there to write what you feel and write from your experiences. it doesn't have to be my life as an angry black woman. it can be my life going through law school my first year with no money. you know, we have such a diverse community within our community, and i think it only makes us all better. we share those experiences and be not gonna focus on the most awful experiences in this our neighborhoods. >> you're not late.

we're just about ready to start. come on in. [laughter] >> right on down front. [laughter] >> had to start it. had to start it. [laughter] >> and don't be surprised if this scenario appears in some show on television at some point. [laughter] they'll get your names later so we can be accurate. >> oh -- >> okay. we've got -- >> oh, a fight breaking out in the back. >> people over here. there may be some angry black women in the line, we don't know. [laughter] we're going to start with a first question. state your name and -- >> okay. good afternoon, my name is vicki m. oliver lawson. i'm a poet and author and retired educator from baltimore. now, because i got frustrated with trying to find an agent to publish, i self-published, like, 13 children's books. two of them i've already

released, and what i'm interested in doing now is moving it to the next level. i would like to see the chirp's books become children's programming. so i guess my question is mainly for you, mr. , with -- wilmore, but many -- in of you can address it. >> and your question was? >> would you produce her show, that's the question. >> oh, yeah. how about that? [laughter] [applause] >> don't let me get angry up here. >> is this a private question? [laughter] >> i just want to know what are my next steps in terms of -- >> to produce a children' show? >> right. children's programming. >> well, i haven't really done children's programming, but, um, and you're producing a show that's based on your own books, is that what you're saying? >> yes. >> and you live in washington? >> no, baltimore. >> oh, baltimore? >> um, that's a very good question.

[laughter] i'm not sure really how to, where to do children's programming of the educational stuff because i guess pbs is the first place to think of for something like that. >> yeah. been there. >> yeah. i just don't know much about that area. prime time i kind of know more about. >> i would suggest, um, that you, um, don't wait on the network bees to anoint -- networks to anoint your vision, that you take it to the marketplace. you take it to the internet. because there is only a limited amount of space on network, and they only, they already have their, what their marching orders or what they're going to do or not do. i would suggest that like you did with your self-publishing, you said, i'm not waiting. put it on the internet, youtube or whatever and create, you know, fans, followers or whatever and let them come to you after you've

created the, you know, the momentum. but don't wait on anyone. take it to the marketplace, and the marketplace will decide. >> right, thank you. >> and i think -- [applause] that is great advice. that's how a lot of my students at clark atlanta university get their material out there, is they start with some very expensive web and video work, they get it out there, and they see what happens and see who pays attention to it, so so it's a good way to go. >> yes, sir. >> how you doing, everybody? >> good. >> now, i'm glad you mentioned flip wilson because i was thinking of him when you guys were talking. the reason i was thinking of flip, because he played a woman character, and i was thinking of medea, you know? i was thinking -- eye i'm sure you guys know more about that than i do, whether that's where mad everything a came from. and also we left out redd foxx,

redd foxx was very important. and, mel, can i call you mel? >> >> yeah. >> and in terms of amos and andy, you know, that lawyer thing. because i know howard at the time -- >> calhoun. >> right. they were producing lawyers, and i wonder if that was put out to kind of make the black lawyer look like a baffoon. so those are the things i was -- >> flip wilson was one of my favorite comedians. i interviewed flip wilson probably more than any other comedian. i had a lot of respect for him as a comic, and i thought he was one of the best around until richard pryor arrived on the scene because flip was a vaudeville type. he brought the old school to the new school because he did have social commentary embedded in that vaudeville approach that he had. but flip was there. redd foxx, i think we did mention him, but he was one of those breakthrough comics in the late '50s and '60s who moved us from the old --

>> he was on -- [inaudible] party records back then. >> yeah. he was doing the party records, but he also was working in clubs at this point. he could never breakthrough for a while until he got with nipsy and started to breakthrough. they had a tremendous impact on things. in terms of flip's character, the woman character, the female character that he did, he talked extensively on that, and you have to remember that black women characters portrayed by men go all the way back to minstrel si first done by whites on the minstrel stage. and be done, also, by black minstrels when they took over in the 1870s. so you have a whole tradition to this. it goes all the way back. flip wilson thought that he was bigiving that character some dignity. he thought he wanted to do a real woman, but it was prideful, andher whole thing about, you know, don't touch me, t like she was a very proud woman who never allowed anyone to put her down.

and flip insisted upon that. and when he talked to me about it, it was one of the things he said he wanted to do. madea, i don't know, i think i'll let someone else talk about that. [laughter] >> i got nothing. >> uh-oh. >> tyler perry, that character to me is not one of my favorites, put it that way. so, and be i think that a few other black comedians have done the female characters that, in my opinion, are not that positive. it bothers me. if it bothers me, i can tell you that i'm offended by some of that stuff where i was not offended by flip wilson's character. >> well, i just will note that you're not getting any commentary from the others on madea, and we'll move on.

[laughter] >> with well, and a lot's been said about tyler perry's characterization of madea, and as he explains it's based upon all of his aunts and so forth. um, first we have to applaud him for creating a mechanism or a company where he is producing, um, films and product and so forth. [applause] we have to do that. and we have to, also, say that there also is -- we have to have a balance and a variety of voices because there's other voices that should be ushered in too to express different parts of our life. so it's -- we need all kinds of voices. >> i should say i actually wrote a lot of the jamie foxx wanda sketches for "in living color." so i don't think that's probably one of your favorites, mel. [laughter] but the whole point of that character was she was just so

repulsive, and yet she just could not get enough attention, you know? [laughter] and we had so much fun. and it was, jamie did that in his stand-up. i remember his audition for "in living color," and i don't know if he called her at wanda, but he would just change his face, and he would start trying to hit on the audience members, and he was just the funniest thing in the world. for us it was more about how repulsive that character was, and jamie's characterization of it was so infectious. but it wasn't like he was doing a person, he wasn't making social commentary with it, i should say, you know? he wasn't presenting this as a black woman. this is a repulsive person who can't get enough attention and thinks she's fly and all that. >> and in the context of that show, it was very satirical. >> exactly. many different images, so that wasn't just the one. it didn't stand on its own.

martin lawrence too. >> yes. >> my name is tim, independent film maker and kind of a question for everyone. like, with the bernie mac show, it crosses, it's a very layered show, and from his kings of comedy stand-up to where in the show he's a loving, you know, but a tough dad. there's always a moral ending to it. it's a really quality show, and nowadays when you see tv, it seems like they just spit 'em out with no thought involved like just mass-produced shows just to get 'em on the air. you know, we've got 12 shows to do, let's go, the clock's ticking, you know? the one i could see, like, modern family you could tell there's a lot of thought and be a lot of creativity that goes into it, and they're really not under a timeline, and it's, you know, you guys have to deal with publishers and time commitments.

at what point do you say, you know what? it's all about the quality, not the quantity? >> um, you have to do it at every point. i had to fight for all those moments. in the pilot i had a scene where bernie spanks jordan in the grocery store, and that was very important to me because that's what we do, you know? [laughter] but it was shocking to white people. [laughter] they were shocked at the network. oh, my god, he struck him? i'm like, yeah, that's what -- [laughter] the way he was acting, he's lucky that's all he did. [laughter] that was my point of view. i wanted it bigger, actually, and -- >> the neighborhood i grew up in was still suburbia, but if you even thought about it, i mean, it was going down. >> sure. [laughter] >> you know, so, and, again, like the bernie mac show and i

would say such as modern family kind of crosses race barriers. it's, like, if you talk back to your grandmother, you know, you've just sealed your fate. >> right. >> or if you even think about it, you know? but at what point -- >> the same question or a different one? >> at what point do you, you know, do you take creative control and say, look -- >> no, as i said before, it has to be at all points. >> yeah. >> every single point. i was fired from the bernie mac show in the second season, and i had won an emmy, a beltway body award, tv critics award, golden globe nominated, i don't know how many awards i had to win before they got the point that it was about the quality of the show. but they wanted it to be a cookie cutter type show. they wanted, you know, the wyomings to act -- wife to act in a certain way, and i said, no, she's a human being.

she's going to behave the way a human being behaves. she's not a cookie cutter black woman. and i stood up for her in the face of getting fired which was fine with me because i wasn't going to compromise. >> did you win the bet award though? >> no, because they didn't -- [laughter] >> damn, we lost to the steve harvey show! >> peabody, bet -- >> they're both very important. >> if i could just follow up on that. it's really difficult with a big network. and, you know, as someone who was fairly young in the business, it was extremely difficult to fight the corporate overlords. i mean, especially when it gets into race and something that's controversial, i mean, what sponsors want to see is a racial -- least is a racial controversy around the show. so it was, i mean, i have to say

it was extremely difficult, and i have -- i mean, what really bothered me was how so many of the kind of corporate media tv execs, they really underestimate the black audience. i had a top executive sit me down and say verbatim, that's not ready. and it was just really disheartening to think that they have it in their minds that we can only digest this kind of information and we're not smart enough, particularly young people, to get the irony or the sarcasm. they won't understand, they're going to be offended. and t really disheartening. i would go speak to colleges and everybody got it, they loved it, they thought it was so funny. but it was very challenging. so my experience was extremely difficult and very disheartening at times where i felt this was not the best representation of me, but because i had put myself

in this network situation where, you know, i'm kind of the' onat this point -- peon at this point, it can be very difficult when you get to that level, especially with racial issues. >> [inaudible] >> i'm sorry? >> yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible] >> this was in table. so, i mean, these days in cable they're all run by super, mega conglomerates anyway. so, i don't know, i think it's going to be difficult anywhere. >> hi. my name's courtney, i'm from d.c. today to be with you all. the conversation about sort of hidden topics and hidden discussions and how they kind of come out in if humor and the history of that within our community reminded me or made me think about, um, sort of the tracy morgan situation and his comments about homosexuality and how that was very controversial and, you know, the humor didn't quite work in the context in terms of how people reacted to it. and my question is, i'm

wondering within the community of comedians and humorists, is there some tempering that goes on between you in terms of kind of working with each other to see, you know, how far is too far, and that doesn't really work in that context, or is it just, you know, you kind of put it out there, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work? >> i mean, tracy, what he's doing now is what he was doing now when i would perform, he and and i started at the same time on 125th street and fifth avenue. so he was doing that kind of humor -- not just tracy, take the focus off tracy, a lot of particularly african-american male comics do that kind of humor. or say those kinds of -- you know, whatever, however you want to characterize that on stage. the only, the only issue when it comes to stand-up comedy where you run into problems or the only sin is if it's funny. if it's funny and it's horrific, it's still funny.

so, obviously, that night it was not funny, and in the rules in the house of comedy, that was, that's how comics look at it, that he failed in terms of hitting the punchline or making a punchline. but he's been doing that and other comics, you've seen that on network shows, on bet or black comedy clubs throughout this country happening right now. and they want to talk about, you know, the gay man or the gay woman and all sorts of things. it's not new. what i think is new over the passing of the last ten years is that the gay and lesbian community have, you know, drawn a circle around and have lobbied this is what you're going to do, and this is what you're not going to do. i'm going to attack your advertisers. they go after the money. and if you have an issue as a community, that's what you should do. of you shouldn't just complain, call up the radio station and hang up the phone, you should

lobby and advocate around a particular issue and attack the money, and that's what they did. >> the other issue on that was someone in the club wrote a blog about it -- >> right. >> -- and then tracy's words that were meant to be heard live in a comedy club in context were written, now it's written and people are reading it in the code, i will beat my son if he says he's gay. but if he said that to your face, you'd go, oh, man, that's too funny. oh, tracy, stop it. [laughter] i mean, t a different context, you know? >> it's all context, yeah. >> yeah, you know? i'm not supporting it either way, but when it's taken out of that context for political reason, well, it's going to have a different kind of power. [inaudible>> yes, ma'am. >> hi, my name is caitlin, and it's just in terms of read anything general. you mentioned earlier that there's a big focus on the fact that people just aren't reading

anymore because now we're in if an instant gratification society. and i was just wondering in terms of the reason why kids don't read anymore is school curriculums are still teaching boring books. not to knock on "the great gatsby", i'm sorry, when you're 18 years old in the 21st century, no one cares that she wore a purple dress to an all-white event and wants to pick out the imagery in that. do you think that may be the way curriculums are taught with reading kind of discourages people from reading for fun? >> shakespeare's so 15th century. [laughter] i mean, there's really no point. >> but shakespeare's a different target. we're still reading books like the scarlet letter. when i was in high school, basically, the most modern book was stuff coming out by zora

hurston, and be i really don't think much more stuff has come out in terms of modern literature in terms of that. >> i don't know about that. i have to say going through high school and college the books they made us read at the time i thought were boring andhell laishes, but i'm telling you in about five to ten years when you're at that cocktail party and someone makes a, you know, what's her name scarlet letter, esther prin reference, and you're like, oh, my god, i mean, i think there's a lot to be leshed that sometimes you don't get are for five or ten years. perhaps you're too young. not you're too young, but a lot of books like moby dick, no, you probably don't get it until later. i think there is value in reading the classics. [applause] i think -- is. >> oh, yeah, absolutely. >> i think part of the problem

is that we all want the next thing that's new and shiny, and be so we are forgetting about history, and we want, you know, whatever, you know, we want to read the twilight series in high school. and i think there's been a loss of a focus on good writing and good structure and good literature as opposed to what's entertaining and fun. because sometimes they're not the same thing. [applause] >> also i think for me at least the love of reading came from my parents. my mother used to collect a lot of paperback books, they were in the house all the time. i didn't learn to love to read from school, i learned from home. and my kids have learned to love to read because we read to them. i think that's where you get your love for reading. [applause] >> and the debase about curriculum in colleges is going on still. it's very difficult to figure out what's really happening with

that because you do have the classics, and they're almost history books. but you're reading fine writing as someoned pointed out here. it's so outstanding that simply from the point of view of the way it's written they should still be read. and certainly if you're dealing with shakespeare despite the difficult difficulty in reading it, you have to realize the guy was a genius. anyone who could come at so many summits with as much -- subjects with as much expertise as he did deserves to be dealt with even if it's a little difficult. but in terms of the classics, you should read them. it's -- they're more history than anything else. the point is we should also look at the modern classics. i taught a literature course at colgate university a couple years ago, and they were asounded that i wanted to teach ishmael reid and cecil brown and barry beckham and alice walker

and toni morrison. they were not teaching those courses. somehow those normals of the '70s and '80s have dropped out. those novels relate more to what you're talking about. i think there are novels that students can relate to more easily because they're dealing with subjects that may be not quite as old as some of the weeks -- books that you're talking about. >> we'll take one more question. >> thank you all for coming today. >> two more questions. [laughter] >> nice catch. [laughter] my name's khalil muhammad, i'm the new director of the schaumberg, and so this is a real honor to be here. >> [applause] congratulations. >> my question has to do with postracialism or the age of obama.

a moment in which the kind of authentic black voice seems to be buried along with the n word as a creature of the jim crow era and everything that came before. what i'm wondering is, um, if black people are disappearing from networks as i think we talked about, and the issue of creative control, um, is one that is still a struggle. how is that impacting the kind of writing that critiques white america in the way that richard pryor's voice once did? i mean, dave chapelle literally was unable to balance that line in a moment which i would argue made it even more difficult, the sensibility. and i think, mel, i think you would bring that kind of depth to thinking about this. the sensibility that richard pryor brought to his material was also grounded in a moment

where white people were being much more self-reflective of the history of this country given what was happening literally on the streets of america. dave chapelle's audience, and i'm just using him as an example, had brought the same for a postracial moment, the same kind of biting satirical criticism of america, and yet it failed miserably in terms of its longevity. and having in a sense 20-something whites feel as empowered to write about black people because, after all, it's an mtv world.

they reward white people, that's my question. [applause] >> okay. in terms of richard pryor -- a more militant approach by blacks, but race was on the table in america in a way that it's not now. so what richard pryor had to say, much of it comparing and contrasting black lifestyle with the white american norm and much of his comedy came from that was very pertinent, very vivid and very impactful at that time. as far as dave chapelle, i consider dave chapelle one of the best comedians around. he and chris rock to me are one of the top three from my point of view. and, again, it's subjective. but i'm not sure or dave chapelle wasn't a success. did he not leave because -- >> he walked away. >> he did not want to.

i watched that show, and be i know that students in a class that i teach on comedy, on african-american comedy, white and black students love dave chapelle. dave chapelle was one of the most popular comedians there. they understand him much more than richard pryor so he was, i think, getting across. i think they understood that in a way because he was able to take part of this mtv shock value presentation and combine it with something that richard pryor was doing which was more black in nature. dave chapelle can be black or go very articulate on you. he can do both things. and, therefore, he was able to, he was able to deal with various new woonses -- nuances of the comedy in different way. >> i actually agree with that. i show it in college classrooms. the problem, i thought, was that his social commentary was lo in trans-- lost in translation is the point i was making. >> oh, okay. >> in other words, the audience, for the brilliance he brought to his material, in a sense

self-destructed because you had, you had young people, 19-year-olds who grew up in a moment where minstrelsy, were being black in a sense was performative without any of the context or the seriousness of the black experience. and my opinion was that the 19-year-olds when we watched youtube videos of chapelle in the classroom, none of the history was there. none of the per tin si and urgency of what he was bringing to the conversation was there. it was just, it was like any number of critiques that spike lee has made of a kind of white hipster sensibility in the 1980s and 1990s. >> no, i think that's true. i think context has made laws. we don't deal with it as much as we should, so those students and young people don't have the context that would allow them to appreciate it the way richard pryor was appreciated. so i totally agree with you

there. >> okay, last question. [applause] yes, ma'am. >> thank you so much for letting me talk just a few minutes. i'm from the old school, all right? >> >> all right. [applause] >> nobody, no one mentioned you remember the man who used to say, shut the door? you know, and the judge, nobody mentioned him. >> here come the judge? >> markham. >> yeah, nobody mentioned him, and he was good. [laughter] okay. and i'm thinking about with us as black folk, you know, some of our if you don't behave i'm going to slap the black off you. you know that's impossible, but that's what we say when we punish people. all in the family o'connor. some of the things that man said, he still had a tv program, so what's up with that? [laughter] >> archie bunker? >> he told me to be fast, i'm fast.

>> all right. [applause] thank you. quick response? >> you're talking about all in the family. >> yeah. >> at the time when norman lear wrote that show, there was nothing quite like that on television. there were no characters that really spoke that way, and norman lear really, he was an equal opportunity offend beer. [laughter] offender. but it was very important for him to show that face of kind of white, bigoted america. that was very important to him. he was very passionate about that. and he introduced the jeffersons on that show, a successful black family, a black entrepreneur, you know? and it was important for him that that character have dignity and have his own set of problems too, you know? but he always had dignity which i thought was very important. but the times are different now. you couldn't put a show like all in the family on network television today for whatever

reason. but what was stark about it was that it was very truthful and honest about where america was at that time. so it's one of my favorite shows actually. >> let me say thank you to the schaumberg for this great venue and this audience. >> thank you, thank you. >> and i want to say thank you to -- [applause] the family from the atlanta university center for showing up and support being us. [applause] including my wife. and be, let's see, there will be a book signing immediately following by the penguin booth outside, but now i want to thank our panelists for a great, great time. sabrina lamb, jan donaldson, larry wilmore and, of course, mel watkins. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> the history of

african-american humor from the 13th annual harlem book fair. booktv's live coverage of the 2011 harlem book fair will continue with a panel on african-american history and biography after this short break. it's booktv's live all-day coverage of the harlem book fair. [inaudible conversations] >> the supreme court is now available as a standard and enhanced e-book and tells the story of the court through the eyes of the justices themselves. eleven original c-span interviews with current and retired justices. this new edition e-book includes an interview with the newest justice, elena kagan, and with the enhanced e-book add to your experience by watching multimedia clips from all the justices. available now wherever e-books are sold. >> what are you reading this summer? is booktv wants to know. >> well, i'm reading a book

about the coldest winter, and quite frankly, i've held on to this book not wanting to open up the pages to it. it goes over the korean war, and for most people who are familiar with the korean war said you don't want to know. what do they mean by that? well, i was in korea when the chinese actually surrounded the entire eighth army, and it was a nightmare. and fortunately, it's been over 60 years ago, and to the best of my knowledge i haven't suffered psychologically about that war. it pains me when i think of the number of americans that died in

korea. it even becomes more difficult when people ask me to explain my heroic actions in a country i had no idea where i was or why i was there. so i thought it would be better shot to expose myself to any more of this nightmare, and be i left it alone. i have six different copies of this one book by david halberstam. some had loved ones in korea but -- [inaudible] all of them say that their worst thoughts about what happened was actually proven by this book. as to why we got involved, did we know what we were doing, was it